Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers.

(cross-posted at Kickin' it with CG and Clintonistas for Obama)

Most progressives would agree that Hillary Clinton was on the receiving end of a great deal of sexism in the Democratic primary.  This was mostly manifested in the media coverage of her as illustrated in the focus on Clinton's appearance, mannerisms etc.  But almost as quick as anyone could say c-o-n-c-e-d-e, other troubling signs of sexism have surfaced in the campaign.

What has been disgusting is that we have reverted into the oldest stereotypes - namely that women should ONLY depicted as wives or mothers.

The responsibility doesn't just rest on the media, which I'll get to in a minute. The campaigns themselves deserve some of the blame as well. Do the Obama's and the McCain's want to play into the stereotypes of first ladies that are only sweet and cuddly? Is Michelle going to quit giving her husband the fist-bump because it comes across as too strong?  Does Cindy have to submit any more of 'her' cookie recipes so people can relate to her?

Media stories breathlessly ask:

'Where do they buy their clothes?'

'What types of food do they cook?'

'Which one can be compared to Jackie O?'

WE GET IT.  They are wives and mothers. But guess what?  Both are highly accomplished and intelligent women and are other things too.

In a New York Times article covering Michelle's stint on The View, they further this meme:

Early on, Mrs. Obama was likened to Jackie Kennedy for her youth and fashion style, but lately, the strong and assertive African-American career woman is experiencing the kind of antifeminist hazing that Mrs. Clinton endured in the 1992 campaign when she made her "baking cookies" faux pas.  

Mrs. Obama distanced herself from that model on "The View," describing herself as a mother and not mentioning her law career or her views on policy.

The question is, how does mentioning her career or policy positions make her more palatable?  Is the writer suggesting that America cannot handle a strong woman?  Or that Michelle's policy positions are unimportant?

This new focus on Michelle and Cindy's hair and dresses comes right at the end of the gender-biased way the media covered Clinton's campaign.  And instead of letting this go - AGAIN - we should be holding the media accountable for perpetuating stereotypes. If a white woman is strong, she's considered cold - as the coverage of Cindy has shown. If a black woman is strong, she's obviously angry - so go the accusations about Michelle.

While I am by no means trying to minimize both the beauty or personal accomplishments of these women, there is far more to them than those things.  And seeing as how the 2008 election cycle thus far has turned conventional thinking on its head, this is an opportunity to change the way women - and first ladies - are represented.  If we let the narrative about the potential first ladies converge on the role and status of the conventional "little lady" then we have lost the chance to reframe gender and marriage dynamics.



Display:


this is not a candidate diary. (2.00 / 15)


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:00:02 AM EST

Re: this is not a candidate diary. (2.00 / 10)

excellent diary.  a clear confrontation of soft sexism which is often more damaging to equality and more difficult to fight because it is invisible or seen as not a big deal.

tipped and rec'd.


by elie on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:25:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Seconded! n/t (2.00 / 4)


Grumpy, reluctant, sore-losing, unhappy, irritable Hillary supporter for Barack Obama 2008
by DemAC on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:28:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seconded! n/t (1.00 / 1)

Well, we just missed the opportunity to really change the rulez of da game by electing a female president. So in a way, it's quite appropriate and fitting that Obama's wife will have to play the little lady on TV. The Democratic Party made the bed - she (and all women) will lie in it.


by TheLeftApple on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:36:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

several things... (2.00 / 4)

Hillary's run changed the rules of the game for any female candidate down the road.

Michelle is never going to just be the little lady, except perhaps when represented on The View - where you will get exactly the same depth of character analysis as one would receive from that show at any other time.

The game should never have rules by which either gender is favored independent of merit. The party didn't have a chance to change the rules by electing a woman. The public has the ability to change the rules any time it can mount the social pressure to do so... Clinton can lead that regardless of whether she is the nominee and will likely find Obama a willing participant.


by Casuist on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:50:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this is not a candidate diary. (none / 0)

I just wanted to encourage people to watch the Michelle Obama View segment on You tube. She Does NOT distance herself. In this episode she says people are afraid of Strong women and that Senator Clinton was the victim of sexism.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:40:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

are you still stalking me friend? (none / 0)

sorry can you post the youtube where she discussed her career, accomplishments or policy positions?  which is what the NYT piece i cited referred to.

i gotta say, your act with me is getting old.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:46:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: are you still stalking me friend? (none / 0)

Post it yourself it's your diary. You have listened to it haven't you?


by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:10:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: are you still stalking me friend? (none / 0)

Watch the the whole 24 minute episode on Youtube.
I can't believe you haven't watched it? I found it in 10 seconds
by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i watched it when she was on last week. (2.00 / 1)

it doesn't exist.  that's the point.  

she does not discuss her career or policy positions which is what this diary and the NYT article allege.  but yet again, you are here suggesting nefarious and irrelevant facts.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:17:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i watched it when she was on last week. (none / 0)

I thought you would agree with herMichell Obamas comments on the View People are afraid of strong women and Senator Clinton for example was attacked in a sexist way. I think the NYT left this part out.
Did you watch this particular episode?

by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:26:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i watched it when she was on last week. (none / 0)

You did watch it. Well I think the NYT is off on this one.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:27:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yes - for the second time. (2.00 / 1)

i watched the episode.  however those comments you mentioned have no relevance to the topic of this diary.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:28:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i watched it when she was on last week. (none / 0)

No, she really doesn't. However, she's was a community relations VP, and isn't looking to have the same sort of first ladyship that Clinton had.

I don't think she sees her personal policies and career as being important here. He is on the ballot, and I've watched a lot of her speeches - she tells personal stories, but she doesn't have her own political career.

I can understand the frustration that she not be more of her own public person - I guess my ideal for the First Lady follows that of Abagail Bartlet or Caroline Ryan.


by Falsehood on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:33:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i watched it when she was on last week. (none / 0)

the point here for me is mostly that what the media (and the campaigns too on both sides of the aisle) are feeding into this stereotyping.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:38:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i watched it when she was on last week. (none / 0)

I agree. I've only seen one positive interview by CNN's John King with Cindy McCain in Vietnam that made her look great. She was in her element.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 06:17:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

go away. (none / 0)


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:12:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i watched it when she was on last week. (none / 0)

By the way Michelle Obama answered every question asked by the 5 female hosts. I thought she was a typical woman  Great!


by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:35:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Long time reader... (2.00 / 2)

First time rec'er and tipper. Very nice diary.

I was surprised how quickly the media reverted to the same old boilerplate "first spouse" questions and attention.


by TCQuad on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:59:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this is not a candidate diary. (2.00 / 1)

Great diary canadian girl. You're one of the Clintonistas who have been utterly consistent inveighing against sexism in the media, and you deserve big kudos and your regular appearance on the rec list.


The Moose is Loose!
by duende on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 06:24:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this is not a candidate diary. (none / 0)

thanks brit. ;)


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:02:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (1.00 / 0)

and the media analyst who ask them to project that.

OOO no she can't be a strong woman. M obama has to be a cookie baking aunt Obama to the country.

why would we be able to handle anyone who is as freaking highly educated to have an opinion, especially in the women who marry the spouse we elect!!!!

How could the man we support as president in both camps be smart enough to marry one?


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:03:22 AM EST

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 1)

Most progressives would agree that Hillary Clinton was on the receiving end of a great deal of sexism in the Democratic primary.

listen, no surprise I think M obama is fabulous. and I don't want this to be political, but come on ...

progressives would agree on sexism and that it played a role against Hillary?  could you show me bastion of progressive blogs ( take the top 2 or 3 ) and show me the actual agreement among them to do anything other than piss on her this year? I did not hear/read the word bitch/c*nt/whore when addressing Hillary anywhere on daily basis but on these " progressive blog sites" . And thats my honest take...


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:10:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 3)

Shoot while I'm on roll here. I could but smirk at the dumbing down of Cindy McCain. Here is CEO of company and we hardly hear from her on her views.

On the flip side , we hear about Michelle 's strong views and then this last week , we celebrating on cable new/ publications/ newspaper how everyone appreciated the new softer Michelle . What is this dumbing down of the woman month here?

I found it stupid how they are trying to reduce Michelle to being a barefoot and cookie baker wife.  


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:31:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (1.00 / 3)

that was indeed strange


by workitfool on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 02:34:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (1.00 / 2)

We can create accounts with different IP's faster than you can TR us or Alive and then come after your accounts.


by 22TANGOME on Sat Jun 28, 2008 at 08:46:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It was a COMPLIMENT (none / 0)

sucker.

Seriously, go back and read my comments. I happened to luck into something I thought was clever and nicely encapsulated a good point of Hillary's campaign.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:43:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (none / 0)

Agreed all that focus on fluff is retarded, not so sure it is really sexist though, just general media douchebaggery.

Male candidates are similarly analyzed about clothing and mannerisms.  It helps that men can get away with just wearing a suit all the time, but look at the media stupidity about Kerry in a wetsuit or NASA costume, flag pin controversies, Edwards and his hair.  


by libertyleft on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:12:56 AM EST

not sure i agree (2.00 / 5)

it is media douchebaggery but it is also sexism because it perpetuates a narrow role for women in society.  

in what they choose to present and what they choose to omit, they are making a statement about what activities are valid for women.

in turn, i also agree that the whole john edwards haircut dustup was sexist because it serves to perpetuate a narrow role for men in society. why would a haircut delegitimize a man's very real achievements? he was ridiculed as if this did not make him a "real man."


by elie on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:37:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not sure i agree (2.00 / 3)

The Edwards attack were mostly about his wealth, they were bringing up a silly hypocrisy charge about him talking about the poor but having expensive haircuts, big house, etc.

I don't see the talk about clothing, motherhood, etc as promoting a narrow view of women, so much as promoting the common view in modern America than women have to be every role at once.

Society urges them not only to have a career, but to do all the old fashioned stuff like taking care of the house and kids in addition and women are not viewed as complete if they don't do both.

They aren't implying Michelle or Hillary should get out of politics and get into the kitchen, just looking for a superficial nod to femininity in the same way hunting photo ops or "having a beer" type photo ops show superficial images of manhood.


by libertyleft on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:48:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not sure i agree (2.00 / 4)

yes but the right wing's fav pet name for him is "silky."  every time michelle malkin posts a picture of him, she gives him My Little Pony hair.  

it's sexism poorly hidden behind an argument about hypocrisy. (which was a stupid argument anyway because everyone running for president this cycle is filthy stinkin rich...)

while i agree that they are not necessarily implying that anyone get out of politics and into the kitchen, it is a reflection of the fact that this is the way america is most comfortable viewing women, especially public women.  this is not wholly the media's fault.  it is our own as a society.  for example both campaigns are perpetuating this with their cookie recipes and view appearances.


by elie on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:07:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

um - for the record. (2.00 / 1)

i love the view.  its not their appearances on the show that are particularly frightening, but rather how they chose to portray themselves on it.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:12:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not sure i agree (2.00 / 1)

while i agree that they are not necessarily implying that anyone get out of politics and into the kitchen, it is a reflection of the fact that this is the way america is most comfortable viewing women, especially public women.

Yes, this is just a natural thing in society, I'm not sure there is any way around it.  Men are subjected to the same type of gender sterotyping, just in different ways.  How often did Rudy G. in drag get brought up by the same Malkin type of people?  It gets brought up because he was breaking male gender roles.  

I'm not sure this should really be defined as sexism as much as a result of tribalism and social conservatism.

Look at the discussion we are having, no one is saying there is anything wrong with baking cookies or caring about clothing, just that people should not be defined by these roles or feel constrained to that definition.

It sounds like from the rest of your comment we are mainly agreeing, so to get back to square one why I felt the need to flesh these points out:

What has been disgusting is that we have reverted into the oldest stereotypes - namely that women should ONLY depicted as wives or mothers.

I think it is pretty clear the media is not depicting these women ONLY as wives or mothers, just putting an extra burden on them to define themselves in that way.  This is only a problem, as far as I can tell, if that persona is false.  I don't think it is.


by libertyleft on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:31:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not sure i agree (2.00 / 3)

I'm not sure this should really be defined as sexism as much as a result of tribalism and social conservatism.

I think it is sexism, and it's still patriarchal in nature. And the repubs know how to finesse it to their advantage. Most Democratic woman are overly manly bitches, while most Dem men are somehow effeminate girly-boys.

Both stereotypes are rooted in some sort of pre-60s la la land that probably never really existed (or at least not to the extent they'd have us believe), but the belief in which motivates much of the 'traditional' values talk that has so defined elections since 1980. I mean, come on, Reagan was an actor . . . how many actors out there have had that 'talk' with their manly Repub uncle about how it's not really even a job.

So what did they do? They put him out on the ranch with an axe in his hand. See, he is a REAL man (unlike that cardigan-wearer!).


John McCain is a coward. He has no honor.
by vadasz on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:06:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not sure i agree (2.00 / 2)

Have you seen the comments directed at conservative women like Ann Coulter?  Yes, I know she is a terrible human being and entirely devoid of worth as a pundit...but have you noticed how often when she comes up liberals throw insults at her suggesting she is a transsexual or manly looking?

Or how some liberals make fun of Bush for being a cheerleader in college?

This type of stereotyping is hardly a conservative only thing.  I don't know that I would call it a result of patriarchy precisely.  I would call it a result of gender roles ingrained in our society.  Of course, yeah, the society was patriarchal so the results reflect that.

I would not call it sexism, though it probably is, only because I think using the term sometimes gets too focused on women, when as we move forward to become a more enlightened society (and even in the world today) these social pressures have a strong effect on the lives of each gender.


by libertyleft on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:21:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not sure i agree (2.00 / 1)

Wow, I honestly had never even heard that Bush was a cheerleader.  Makes sense though, since he cheered us into Iraq.

"Give me a W!  Give me an M!  Give me a D!...now no one go look for them!"


by ProgressiveDL on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:16:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yup (2.00 / 3)

He played sports too, in much the fashion you would expect.


by libertyleft on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:31:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you haven't seen the worst pictures (2.00 / 1)

... I know someone who does that sort of analysis for a living ... some of Bush's pictures make him look... like a brattish fratboy.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:46:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you haven't seen the worst pictures (2.00 / 2)

I'm pretty sure all of Bush's pictures make him look like a brattish fratboy.


by TCQuad on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:57:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

not to the extent of an unprovoked attack (2.00 / 1)

after the whistle has blown. oh, but the look on his face!


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not sure i agree (2.00 / 2)

I agree that conservatives aren't the only ones to fall prey to gender stereotyping . . . LOTS of libs/dems do it. I just think the Republican party has been MUCH better over all at using it as a divisive issue in political campaigns.

'Sexism' as a term does tend to focus too much on behavior towards woman, mainly, I guess, because they have born the brunt of sexual/gender inequality throughout history and across cultures. There may be a need for a better term; but at the moment, I think it works best to describe the still deeply entrenched notion that there is a 'manly' line to walk and a 'womanly' place to keep, and the further one deviates from those two arenas, the 'stranger' one becomes.

It's sexist whether directed at males or femails because at its root it still determines the 'manly' line to be superior.


John McCain is a coward. He has no honor.
by vadasz on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:00:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: not sure i agree (2.00 / 2)

awesome points about rudy, ann coulter, and w.  don't you love how a good diary can promote an acutal discussion of a topic? even one as contentious as sexism in this election. yay!

for the record, i hate it when liberals get all adams apple on ann coulter.  it completely undermines any argument about her actual point.  but then, i didn't pick up on the drag and cheerleading aspects... which i agree are part of the same phenomenon.  so maybe im more sensitive to the ways it manifests itself for women (which is not a good thing if my goal is gender equality...)

anyway, thanks for the great discussion.

e


by elie on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good old media (2.00 / 1)

Don't worry, the MSM hears your criticism and they are rushing to fix the problem.  Would you feel better if they made Barack a fashion object as well?  


by semiquaver on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:18:42 AM EST

oy vey. (2.00 / 1)

i dont know what's worse - the questions or the fact that donatella 'dedicated' a line to him.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:26:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oy vey. (2.00 / 1)

I'll tell ya  Canadian gal. it's called the making of a rock star . that's all he is doing , making money on the brand they like to project.

Come on people this the leader of free world we are electing . not Yves St Barack line of clothing...


Rise / Repeat / But for god's sake don't spin!
by aliveandkickin on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:52:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (none / 0)

Michelle with the nanny and the housekeeper is not a soft cuddly stay at home mom and never has been. She has always been the breadwinner in the family. I have no problem with that, but she need to be taken to task for the house in order comments about Hillary. You can spin what she meant anyway you want but the truth is Michelle is no suzy homemaker, dinner on the table, doing the laundry keeping the house in order wife. So spinning her statement makes her either dishonest about her role or guilty of making a sexist attack on Hillary. Which ever it is it does not paint a pretty picture of Michelle.


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:19:53 AM EST

i have no idea what you are talking about. (2.00 / 5)

and i am the last person here that will defend the sexism that was thrown at HRC.  but this diary is not about that.  sorry.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:55:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 4)

You're right - what is sexist is that women can be Sandra Lee or Margaret Thatcher or some unholy combination of both (did I hear Martha Stewart?) but nothing else.  My wife is known for being a bitch (and refers to herself as one periodically) when it's just that she values what she does and wants others to do likewise.  I saw a lot of Hillary Clinton in her, and I took offense to the idea that Hillary was a bitch.  Similarly, I'm not a huge fan of Michelle Obama, but I don't want her professional accomplishments to be diminished because she's a first lady.

The problem, by and large, is that America wants to believe that behind every good man is a good woman (by which they mean one that takes care of him).  The media adopts the values of the public (after all, art and information tend to biased for the patron) and thus, we have "bitch" and "mother."  To fix the media, we need to fix America.  Nancy Reagan managed to mitigate her personal image and become more popular than her husband - maybe Michelle Obama's struggle is not the African-American struggle but the female struggle.  I certainly hope she keeps practicing law.


by ejintx on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:26:21 AM EST

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 3)

I think the issue with policy positions is the "two for one" scenario - people want to know what policies they will be getting with a candidate, including whether there is a disagreement on policy between spouses, and if so, whose position will win out.  As for the other methods of softening, I wonder how much of that is necessary so that they avoid being labeled "elitist."  I wonder if there is a problem for Michelle Obama in relating to older women who may not have received the same educational or career opportunities that she did.  Likewise, the fact that Cindy McCain is a wealthy heiress represents a significant divide with everyday voters.  It's certainly a complex issue.


by rfahey22 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:27:28 AM EST

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 2)

I think there is also an underpinning of belief that husbands, including the President, will somehow be "coerced" by their wives into different positions/actions/beliefs.  Anecdotally, I see that happen all the time with regular husbands and wives in terms of religion, political beliefs, etc..  I wonder if that fear/belief is a part of this?


by ProgressiveDL on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Cuddly too? (2.00 / 3)

I'm wondering what the treatment will be of the first woman president's spouse if he is not an active politcal figure as Bill Clinton was in this go-round.  Will this become a more generalized issue of supportive spouse transformation, or will this kind of rendering powerless and "cute" only happen to women in this position.  It will be interesting to see. We are obsessed with our politicians' families; I wonder how that will go.


by mady on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:38:32 AM EST

Re: Cuddly too? (2.00 / 2)

Or even if he is an active political figure.  I'm sure the Republicans were salivating at attacking Bill Clinton as the First Man (?).


by rfahey22 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

An intriguing thought. When a woman (2.00 / 2)

is eventually elected President it will be interesting to watch how the First Husband is covered/treated. Hmmm. Something to look forward to.


by Swedie on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:51:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: An intriguing thought. When a woman (2.00 / 2)

Probably not too much different than Margaret Thatcher's husband


by gil44 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:55:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cuddly too? (none / 0)

Great question! If Bill was in Michelle's position
what policies would he suggest President H Clinton persue. I imagine he would avoid specifics
What do you think?
by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 06:25:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 4)

It's a good point.  Why do we need cookie recipes from these women?  They've obviously accomplished a hell of a lot more than most have in life.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:38:34 AM EST

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 1)

Who in their right mind would eat a cookie either of these women baked if it did not come off a roll of dough in the freezer. Does anyone for one minute really believe they would know the difference between a teaspoon of salt and a tablespoon of salt?


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:47:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (1.50 / 2)

You bet I refer to men as whores and bitches and honey often on threads about sexism. I levels the playing field and lets them know their place. Okay Honey!

"RedStateLib-The condition of being a Liberal who finds themselves living in a state that never should have gone to Bush in 2000."
by RedstateLib on Mon Jun 23, 2008 at 11:15:26 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This  

Loved this little nugget you dropped in another diary.


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:54:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not going there in this diary, (2.00 / 1)

as far as quoting this person.  The diary is good commentary and should stay that way.

The one comment I will add that hopefully is on topic for the diary is that this commentor you replied to is imo displaying the kind of approach that does everything to perpetuate divisions and nothing to address them.  

My comments on topic in the last day or two have been lengthy enough about that, so in summary: if it was in the past effective to combat discrimination by embodying it, those days are gone.  Now it just hardens biases and kills intelligent conversation.  

Not to brush all Boomers, but the Generational Cycle diary really stuck with me, and I think there is much to the concept that many Boomers (on both extremes) have embraced polarizing approaches to such an extent that there appear to be no path to discussing non-extremist solutions left with them.

-chris


Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging
by chrisblask on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:26:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm not going there in this diary, (none / 0)

Ageism raises its ugly head once again.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 08:48:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

:~) I can only hope that's snark (2.00 / 1)

The funny thing about demographics is you can do real analysis with them.  Simultaneously they are useless when dealing with individuals.

Accurate comments can be made about "Americans", "Canadians", "Boomers", "Liberals", "Conservatives"...  There are shared traits that have enough saturation that they are worth recognizing (and which ignoring or denying is dishonest).  That doesn't mean any one person will share any one of these traits (I am a living example and the Youngest Boomer, you and everyone else can also say similar things). Age is one of those things that has a lot of value (demographically).  The Greatest Generation fought WWII, the rest of us did not.  That is a shared perspective that no-one born after (or like my parents, during) the war can fully understand.

As the Last Boomer (or just past the edge depending how you count it, but as the youngest person in every crowd growing up this is my peer group) I see this as introspection as much as observation.  Boomers grew up either embracing the establishment with great vigor or opposing with equal enthusiasm.  This has on aggregate created perspectives that have their own characteristics, and working on all this Elecion Stuff has brought me into contact with many of my elder Boomer kin who have been protesting for decades.  It is a notable trend that many of these folks are quicker to take offense and to go on offense than those among us who are younger than I.

-chris


Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging
by chrisblask on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: :~) I can only hope that's snark (none / 0)

Then cite a study about the unteachableness of Baby Boomers, rather than offering sweeping stereotypes of their thinking processes.  :)

That I would find interesting rather than somewhat annoying.

BTW, I'm one of the oldest Boomers.  


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:03:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: :~) I can only hope that's snark (none / 0)

I never said anything about unteachableness.  As a supposition I would put forth the general idea that individuals tend to stick to their characteristics - which indicates that demographic groups of individuals will tend to continue their demographic characteristics. Individuals, however, have the ability to change as well.  So it can be assumed that a demographic group that has tendencies which are generally believed to be incorrect over time may tend to change it's own demographic characteristics.

The diary I was referencing was this one: The Coming Democratic Earthquake.

Would be an interesting thread to compare the Earliest and Latest Boomers (you and I) and our evolving worldviews.  My Mom (1941) is a pre-boomer Silent Generation person and I grew up hanging with my older brother and his crowd, so while you grew up making setting Boomer precedents, I grew up when they were already becoming cliches in their own right.  Interestingly contrasting perspectives from either edge of the same group.

-chris


Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging
by chrisblask on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: :~) I can only hope that's snark (none / 0)

Because I am the youngest child in my family & married young to an older man, I'm not that typical of the Boomers (for example, I've been retired for 5 years).

I have a strong distrust though of the desire to create grouplets out of relatively homogeneous populations, just so as to write a popular book.  IMO, more stereotypes is a bad idea.  This is probably due to being influenced by the huge stereotyping exercise that was growing up in the 1950's.  

And it didn't help hearing all the girls can't do math stuff then when my talent was for science and math.  I ended up an engineer at IBM, but the resistence in my environment to doing those kinds of things was huge.  

So I prefer people to be considered as individuals and regard attempts to stereotype them as counterproductive.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 05:54:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: :~) I can only hope that's snark (none / 0)

Hi LIsv,

Ironically, your comment is common for people of your demographic... ;-)

Folks in my demographic grew up with these sorts of thoughts being very popular.  The idea that girls were incapable of anything that boys could do was anathema in my house and the people worth emulating (like my mother working on her Master's degree) had established a culture that embodied none of that.  So I grew up with the idea that any sort of stereotyping was completely unacceptable.  Then as I passed into adulthood the emergent realization was that not only was it possible to recognize consistent characteristics among various groups, but that refusing to do so because it was perceived as distasteful hampered the ability to understand and influence the very sociological trends that needed alteration if we as a culture were to address faults such as you describe.  In retrospect, one of the big lessons learned from the exercise of the generation that started with your peers is that it is equally important to clearly understand that while demographic analysis - while necessary for understanding how populations function - cannot ever be extended to predict or understand individuals.  

I think this is a key meme that folks like Sen. Obama and myself and our peer group bring to the conversation and is perhaps a key part of the rift between those who identify with Sen.s Clinton or Obama.

In my work life I began in the blue-collar world in part because I held disdain for white-collar "elitism" (a meme I learned from my elder-Booomers), entered business as an engineer and randomly wandered into sales (needed the job) and marketing.  A pertinent point to this dialogue we are having is when I wound up Product Managing the Cisco PIX, and managed to create both short and long-term forecasting that to my knowledge was the most accurate in the history of the company (I came within $1,000 on a $40M+ month, for example).  Extensive pondering of what common motivations would make individual organizations desire to purchase - on average - a security device of certain cost and capability based on their geopolitics, horizontal and vertical market segment, economic considerations and sociological characteristics enabled me to predict with great accuracy how things would work out as a whole.  Notably, none of this has ever made me at all good at determining when any individual person at any given company would choose to buy or not buy (iow, I suck at sales).

This speaks, I believe, to my primary point.  On average those of, what in the context of this conversation, are your peer group are more unbendable in their views of these types of issues.  Those of my peer group are more willing to consider the more nuanced aspects of these types of issues.  This leads to some of the extreme tensions, if my argument bears any weight.  It may sound like "age-ism" to your peers for me to say that people of your demographic share any sorts of characteristics, but it sounds like willful disregard of reality to those in my peer group to hear you say that demographic groups share no common characteristics.

Fortunately, I as an individual differ from my peers in understanding that your demographic group does not - on average - intend negative consequences due to your peer group's common views on these matters.  It's just an unfortunate consequence of otherwise very positive memes that are common among your peers... :-)

-best

-chris


Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging
by chrisblask on Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 07:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: :~) I can only hope that's snark (none / 0)

It's a very small step between saying people of a certain age are too unbendable and throwing them out of the conversation entirely, and not caring about their votes.  Frankly, this is what I feel the Obama campaign/Obama supporters may be doing.

While it is true that any company doing market research will test whether a particular product is more acceptable to one age group or another, and then to place advertisements for that product in media venues that appeal more to that age group, that is not the thing I'm complaining about.  

Indeed people of different ages have different needs-older folks buy few baby bottles and ten year olds don't purchase Metamucil.  

That's not what we're talking about.  We're talking about whether your age group thinks older people as a group (and perhaps particularly older women)  are inherently worthless.  That perhaps overstates it a bit, but I want you to be perfectly clear about where I perceive you going.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Being old, it would not be the first time I was wrong. ;-)

Stereotyping becomes ageism when you stop saying, people of age X are like this now, and when you start saying People of age X can't, won't, or aren't able to do something or other.  Or when you say ALL people of age X are or are not something or other.

Interestingly enough, you engage in that format when you persist in seeing me and my views as Boomer when actually I am more of a War baby person.  That doesn't mean I don't share beliefs with some Boomers, of course, and if there are stats that they dislike stereotyping, I'm there on that one certainly.  However, as I said, I married at 17 and moved to Alaska for several years and missed the 60's entirely as a result.

Perhaps, to use your generalization about people of your own age group, because your parents pushed non-stereotyping, you are embracing it.

To quote a generality that has it's point, "Do you know why kids get along so well with their grandparents?  Have you ever thought that it's because they have a common enemy?"  


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:17:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: :~) I can only hope that's snark (none / 0)

BTW, I like your siggie.  I'm a great fan of Rear Admiral "Amazing Grace" Hopper.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Wed Jul 02, 2008 at 11:19:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 10)

Hmmm, I actually see quite the polar opposite but still something equally as off-putting. There is a simple formula that the media tends to follow when it comes to wives of 'librul' candidates. It goes as follows:

1. She is introduced to the nation in a flurry of positive press as the strong, independent rock of the family and given good media coverage for about a month or two.

2. Said spouse then makes some sort of gaffe or verbal slippage that the networrks turn into a week long bonanza. Cases in point: Hillary and the cookies comment, Teresa Heinz-Kerry and her kerfuffle with Mellon-Scaife's reporter, Michelle Obama being proud of America. All different situations but all resulting in one thing:

3. The woman is turned overnight into a 'lightning rod', a 'polarizing figure' seen as both a blessing and a curse to her husband's campaign. Therefore, she goes from strong female to feminist-zealot bitch in 10 seconds flat.

Conservative wives, on the other hand, stick to a script and are stereotyped by those on the left as Stepford Wives and trophy wives.

I had to especially laugh when people said this about Elizabeth Dole in 96. Say what you will about her but she is NO trophy wife. CEO of the American Red Cross, an accomplished business woman, US Senator. I despise her politics but admire her accomplishments.

Anyways, great diary and rec'd!


by MJJLWolf on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:42:14 AM EST

Re: (2.00 / 2)

Very good points.


by rfahey22 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:57:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

I agree with you. In this episode of the view Michelle Obama talks about being caught up in a 24 hour media cycle.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:07:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 2)

It's been around much longer than that.  One of our greatest feminist/activist first ladies Eleanor Roosevelt had to deal with some major criticisms from the right wing.  Perhaps voters were better at discernment then, or maybe it's that the media is now much more complicit--but FDR was little effected by the criticism against his wife.


by Tenafly Viper on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 05:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Great points, as always! (2.00 / 6)

Highly recommended!

If a white woman is strong, she's considered cold - as the coverage of Cindy has shown. If a black woman is strong, she's obviously angry - so go the accusations about Michelle.

That is an excellent observation. People love to frame it that way.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:47:22 AM EST

Re: Great points, as always! (none / 0)

But even Hillary's opponents considered her to be very strong, and I don't know that she was ever considered to be "cold," was she?  Maybe by fringe elements?


by ProgressiveDL on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:23:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think the (2.00 / 2)

"Hillary is cold and calculating" idea was pretty widespread. Remember when she teared up (slightly) in NH? People spent forever analyzing whether it was real or calculated.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:21:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think the (2.00 / 3)

That's true. It's amazing to me the reactions to women of power like Senator Clinton. Cold and calculating seem to be the most common. In a mans case their would be admiration. I can't say that I understand why but it seems quite ingrained.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:31:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Exactly! (2.00 / 2)

That's the double standard. A strong man is assertive, a strong woman is "a bitch". And sadly, you're right -- that mentality is very deeply ingrained.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:47:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She was frigid as a refridgerator! (none / 0)

... apparently she only looks like that on TV.

In person, she's warm and friendly.


yo mir kennen
by RisingTide on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:51:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama: 'and she looks good too'cue the needle scra (2.00 / 3)

If he wants to reach out to women he needs to get himself out of the 1950s. He's saying women are now doctors and lawyers and isn't that amazing!? And he says his wife does all these things "and looks good doing it too."  Is he doing that to impress women or to impress men?


by catfish2 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:39:43 AM EST

to what are you referring? (none / 0)

i have not heard this.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:41:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Some speech he made today (2.00 / 3)

and I think he was talking to a women's group. He said Michelle is great she takes care of the kids, she does this and that, and "she looks good while doing it too."

But he's made the comment before, with Michelle in high heels and a sleeveless dress, with her perfectly coiffed kids looking up, he looks over at them then says to the crowd "do I have a great-looking wife or what?" Crowd cheers.

Honestly I do suffer from ODS so I can't tell if I'm nitpicking but that seems unprofessional and inappropriate, like he's trying to impress the guys right? Or is it my ODS flaring up.


by catfish2 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:58:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for being honest, Catfish (2.00 / 1)

IMHO it may be your ODS.

We are women and men, we can praise our partners.  Michelle has done the same, and from what I hear Barack is not seen as horrible disfigured to women.

Maybe I am too old-fashioned, but I like to praise my wife including how she looks (that sounds sleazy to write, don't mean it in the trophy-wife context, we've been together a quarter century and I never have been a swagger kinda guy even as a young punk) and it makes me quietly happy when she jokes about me at least not scaring children with my face.  Is "handsome husband" an insult?

We won't have a counter example, probably, becuase John McCain afaik doesn't go out of his way to say nice things about Cindy, and whatever she could say about him honestly, it wouldn't be that he causes heads to turn for his striking good looks.

Mojoed for a reasonable statement!

-chris


Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging
by chrisblask on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:13:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for being honest, Catfish (2.00 / 1)

Hey I like it when my gf tells me I look good in an outfit or like the new pumas I bought.  To say complimenting your partner is somehow bad is odd to me.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It puts women in a box (2.00 / 1)

that they are eye-candy. I know if you're in your early twenties you may not understand this.


by catfish2 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:22:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't agree (none / 0)

There is nothing wrong with being complimented.

George Carlin: "There are no bad words.  There are bad thoughts, and bad intentions.  And words."

-chris


Motley Moose, Troll Free Blogging
by chrisblask on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speech he made today (2.00 / 1)

I don't know about your ODS, but that is so dismissive and minimalizing of his accomplished wife that it makes  me puke.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 09:18:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speech he made today (2.00 / 2)

Yeah, I hate it when people are married for 16 years and are still attracted to one another.  They should hate each other or be divorced like real Americans.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speech he made today (none / 0)

No, he should talk about her as a person and not as a possession, like a cute, smart dog.

That's if what he said was correctly presented above, because I haven't seen a youtube of it.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:53:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some speech he made today (2.00 / 1)

well aside from the whole furthering of the stereotype thing which could be purposeful (or not) i dont see anything wrong with that.  and yes - he is trying to impress the guys (and gals).


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:19:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Furthering the stereotype (2.00 / 1)

exactly my problem. So women are just supposed to be eye candy.


by catfish2 on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:07:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: to what are you referring? (none / 0)

You still actually take that guy seriously?


by libertyleft on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:08:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: to what are you referring? (1.00 / 1)

I love this line. To what are you referring? Please catfish tell us what Obama did. Even though this isn't a candidate diary. Smooth!


by Politicalslave on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:23:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow a guy who appreciates his wife (1.66 / 3)

PLEASE don't let my wife read that speech! /snark

It's a bit...complicated when you can be criticized for saying good things about your wife. I don't know your situation, but if I said the same things about my wife (in public no less), it would probably bring her to tears. The good kind.

So I'm having a hard time seeing the downer. That being said, I'm a male, so I have no sexism detector. You may well be right.


by Neef on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 06:49:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow a guy who appreciates his wife (2.00 / 2)

Well, I am a woman and if my husband said the same about me, I would be proud. I think that is all he is trying to express.  She says similar stuff about him. Being smart and competent does not mean that you want your partner to ignore that you are hot!!!


by smgreene on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:14:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 4)

Bravo, CG.  Bravo.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 02:44:17 AM EST

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 2)

I hope to god we can break this Maureen-Dowd-esque media sexism bullshit. What did she wear? What did she cook? Ugh - makes me wanna vomit. As terrible as the media was to Hillary, at least they didn't subject us to recipes.


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:53:29 AM EST

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 1)

Just in case my comment is unclear - I was saying that the media is full of bulls*** and sexism, not that allegation of sexism in the media are bull.


Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
by X Stryker on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 11:55:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 3)

She is actually one of the worst.  I cringe every time I see she has written some new commentary.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 12:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

exactly! (2.00 / 2)

she is one of the worst offenders.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 03:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 2)

It interests me that sexism so jumps out from the media sewage at some people.

The sexism offends me but no more than the implication that I should be interested in Britiany, care about John Edward's hair, not care about torture, get excited by out of context soundbites that slander Rev Wright, Baby Momma stuff etc,

It has been years since I've been able to sit through more than a few minutes of tv news (excepting on Comedy Central). It is all offensive.  I tried Olberman. The commentaries were fine by me but way too much starlet coverage for my digestion.


McCain just lied again
by wrb on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:01:09 PM EST

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 3)

I was on a gossip website/message board and was horrified at the comments coming from women about Michelle Obama. Many called her a bitch and several said she would never be "Jackie O". Um, this was coming from women?!!! Our ideal is Jackie O.? Not in my mind!

Women are so hard on other women. I can't explain it, but I see it so often and it saddens me greatly. Of course men can be as well, but I'm more concerned about how women treat other women.

I'm pretty sure Michelle has either been told to or has decided herself to "tone it down - get pretty and soft to appeal to women." Gag. Not that there is anything wrong with appearing pretty and soft, but when are we going to be comfortable with women who are complex - both strong and soft.

I started out not being a big fan of Michelle's because I felt she was a bit harsh towards Hillary, but tried to understand that she was probably just being protective of her spouse (as Bill had been of his). I knew this was going to happen to Michelle and hoped perhaps she would be able to appreciate Hillary's style after enduring her own unfair criticism as first-lady-in-waiting.  

This whole campaign has made me accutely aware of how far women have "not" come and how much of it is our own damn fault!


by Dari on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 01:26:01 PM EST

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (2.00 / 1)

I don't know that all of what your referring to has to do with sexism but I appreciate that it's a well-rounded effort that looks at every woman in the political spotlight at the moment.  I tend to think a lot of it is just the vacuous media nitpicking ridiculous "humanizing" stories because they don't feel like doing their job.  

Just like how we have to hear that Obama is bad at bowling (which could be a gender issue if you were reared on the Flintstones, and the Honeymooners) and that ordering orange juice in a diner is somehow all at one exotic and elitist.


by Tenafly Viper on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 04:25:21 PM EST

Re: Soft, Cuddly Wives and Mothers. (none / 0)

For an intelligent, capable woman to voluntarily Stepfordize herself in order to aid her husband's advancement is just a tragedy.  It's her choice, but I can still wish for a society that wouldn't encourage that choice.

I don't know if I could do the same thing in that position.  But it's just not possible for me to truly insert myself in those shoes.  I have no idea.


"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman
by Steve M on Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 07:05:00 PM EST


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